The Green Room - What makes a good comedy?

Reply #20 - Jun 22^nd, 2008 at 3:00pm

kitchensinger Offline
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kitchensinger wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2008 at 2:17pm:

...and may I add O/T...he is in the cast of Shyamalan's "Lady in the Water."

Well, I still like Paul Giamatti, Bob Balaban, Geoffrey Wright and Bryce Dallas Howrd, so I can't hold one lapse in judgement against Irwin, either. Wink

Lapse in judgement? Smiley

�OH!....You mean YOU'RE lapse in judgment for not liking that show.

Don't worry. �I forgive you for not liking everything I like (as you should).

"I have noticed that nothing I never said ever did me any harm."--Calvin Coolidge&&&&"Some families go water skiing together; others go camping.....our family does THEME PARTIES." --my brother Ben

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Reply #21 - Jun 22^nd, 2008 at 3:03pm

The Dark Knight Ex Member

kitchensinger wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2008 at 3:00pm:

Quote:

kitchensinger wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2008 at 2:17pm:

...and may I add O/T...he is in the cast of Shyamalan's "Lady in the Water."

Well, I still like Paul Giamatti, Bob Balaban, Geoffrey Wright and Bryce Dallas Howrd, so I can't hold one lapse in judgement against Irwin, either. Wink

Lapse in judgement? Smiley

�OH!....You mean YOU'RE lapse in judgment for not liking that show.

Don't worry. �I forgive you for not liking everything I like (as you should).

Yes, that must have been what I meant. Shocked

But we're starying very far off topic now. Wink

Enough of Shyamalan, already.

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Reply #22 - Jun 23^rd, 2008 at 6:11am

Wc365 Offline
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Tshep wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2008 at 11:32am:

NP DK... I'm cool with it.

I'll get back to you on the examples. Maybe this calls for another list. First I'd refer you to, as a modern reference, the absolutely brilliant work of Bill Irwin.

"In Regard of Flight" is some of the best time I've ever spent with on what might have amounted to a field trip, if it weren't so damned funny.

Quote:

Another example I give my students is the sitcom Fraiser. Very contemporary, literate, "smart person" humor that nonetheless found its best moments of comic performance in the historic basics of minstrel burlesque (Tambo and Bones), Commedia scenario, and late neoclassic French farce. �

Hmmm...

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Reply #23 - Jun 23^rd, 2008 at 9:17am

Wc365 Offline
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Tshep wrote on Jun 21^st, 2008 at 10:49pm:

Quote:

This is true. But there's a difference between a $1000 a night call girl and some $10 dollar bimbo you'd pick up on State Street.

Now we're stretching the the metaphor a bit, aren't we?

I don't think we are stretching the metaphor too much at all (no more than we'd be capable of doing the same to said callgirl or bimbo).

Actually, getting back to the thrust of your OP... You set up the premise that simply "getting laughs" need somehow be justified.... and you make clear that you find this a lesser form.... not "the smart person's POV" (heheh, and you call me condecending).

Personal taste aside, the historical foundations of comedy are a wealth of simply "getting laughs". The brilliance of Commedia d'ell Arte; which along with the Roman low comedy is the alter at which all modern comedy comes back to genuflect... is "simply getting laughs". Stock characters, comic scenario, schtick, pratfalls, slapstick, timing, burlesque, etc, etc, etc..... nuthin' deep, nuthin' "smart".

But isn't there something in all of these, particularly the Greeks and Romans, that isn't just about the laughs, but also shows a picture of everyday life and makes comments about it that people can identify with?

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Reply #24 - Jun 23^rd, 2008 at 9:33am

The Dark Knight Ex Member

Tshep wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2008 at 11:32am:

Another example I give my students is the sitcom Fraiser. Very contemporary, literate, "smart person" humor that nonetheless found its best moments of comic performance in the historic basics of minstrel burlesque (Tambo and Bones), Commedia scenario, and late neoclassic French farce. �

Which is why "Fraiser" is a show I idealize. There is balance, and many different types of comedy were used. I think the best "Simpsons" epidoes do the same thing. it's comedy that goes for nothing but lowbrow that I dislike. Utilizing elements of neo-classicist French Farce is not something I would ever deliberately describe as dumbed-down.

It took me a log time to recognize and appreciatecommeida, because all I saw was bastardized forms of the medium from people who didn't undertsand how to do it. Bungled comedia is painful.

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Reply #25 - Jun 23^rd, 2008 at 10:11am

Tshep Offline
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just a little bit dirty.
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Quote:

Tshep wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2008 at 11:32am:

Another example I give my students is the sitcom Fraiser. Very contemporary, literate, "smart person" humor that nonetheless found its best moments of comic performance in the historic basics of minstrel burlesque (Tambo and Bones), Commedia scenario, and late neoclassic French farce. �

Which is why "Fraiser" is a show I idealize. There is balance, and many different types of comedy were used. I think the best "Simpsons" epidoes do the same thing. it's comedy that goes for nothing but lowbrow that I dislike. Utilizing elements of neo-classicist French Farce is not something I would ever deliberately describe as dumbed-down.

It took me a log time to recognize and appreciatecommeida, because all I saw was bastardized forms of the medium from people who didn't undertsand how to do it. Bungled comedia is painful.

I suppose the important definition is, what is "low-brow"; what is "dumbed-down"? Farce, at its root, is not much more than sex and fart jokes.

They say, best men are moulded out of faults; &&And, for the most, become much more the better &&For being a little bad.

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Reply #26 - Jun 23^rd, 2008 at 10:16am

The Dark Knight Ex Member

Tshep wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2008 at 10:11am:

Quote:

Tshep wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2008 at 11:32am:

Another example I give my students is the sitcom Fraiser. Very contemporary, literate, "smart person" humor that nonetheless found its best moments of comic performance in the historic basics of minstrel burlesque (Tambo and Bones), Commedia scenario, and late neoclassic French farce. �

Which is why "Fraiser" is a show I idealize. There is balance, and many different types of comedy were used. I think the best "Simpsons" epidoes do the same thing. it's comedy that goes for nothing but lowbrow that I dislike. Utilizing elements of neo-classicist French Farce is not something I would ever deliberately describe as dumbed-down.

It took me a log time to recognize and appreciatecommeida, because all I saw was bastardized forms of the medium from people who didn't undertsand how to do it. Bungled comedia is painful.

I suppose the important definition is, what is "low-brow"; what is "dumbed-down"? Farce, at its root, is not much more than sex and fart jokes.

Good point. Honestly, I don't inherently consider sex jokes "dumbed down". There can be some very smart sex jokes. Fart jokes, it's possible, but less likely.

Perhaps then I misunderstand the the definition of "farce".

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Reply #27 - Jun 23^rd, 2008 at 10:16am

Tshep Offline
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just a little bit dirty.
Beebe, Arkansas

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Quote:

Tshep wrote on Jun 21^st, 2008 at 10:49pm:

Quote:

This is true. But there's a difference between a $1000 a night call girl and some $10 dollar bimbo you'd pick up on State Street.

Now we're stretching the the metaphor a bit, aren't we?

I don't think we are stretching the metaphor too much at all (no more than we'd be capable of doing the same to said callgirl or bimbo).

Actually, getting back to the thrust of your OP... You set up the premise that simply "getting laughs" need somehow be justified.... and you make clear that you find this a lesser form.... not "the smart person's POV" (heheh, and you call me condecending).

Personal taste aside, the historical foundations of comedy are a wealth of simply "getting laughs". The brilliance of Commedia d'ell Arte; which along with the Roman low comedy is the alter at which all modern comedy comes back to genuflect... is "simply getting laughs". Stock characters, comic scenario, schtick, pratfalls, slapstick, timing, burlesque, etc, etc, etc..... nuthin' deep, nuthin' "smart".

But isn't there something in all of these, particularly the Greeks and Romans, that isn't just about the laughs, but also shows a picture of everyday life and makes comments about it that people can identify with?

Certainly.... effective comedy has universality... connects to the broadest swath of audience. When someone slips on a banana peel, there is a polyglot laugh response. Actually, contrary to what you're posing, making comedy about more than the laugh takes you further out of the realm of the universal.... and really makes the comedy less funny.

They say, best men are moulded out of faults; &&And, for the most, become much more the better &&For being a little bad.

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Reply #28 - Jun 23^rd, 2008 at 10:23am

The Dark Knight Ex Member

Tshep wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2008 at 10:16am:

Quote:

Tshep wrote on Jun 21^st, 2008 at 10:49pm:

Quote:

This is true. But there's a difference between a $1000 a night call girl and some $10 dollar bimbo you'd pick up on State Street.

Now we're stretching the the metaphor a bit, aren't we?

I don't think we are stretching the metaphor too much at all (no more than we'd be capable of doing the same to said callgirl or bimbo).

Actually, getting back to the thrust of your OP... You set up the premise that simply "getting laughs" need somehow be justified.... and you make clear that you find this a lesser form.... not "the smart person's POV" (heheh, and you call me condecending).

Personal taste aside, the historical foundations of comedy are a wealth of simply "getting laughs". The brilliance of Commedia d'ell Arte; which along with the Roman low comedy is the alter at which all modern comedy comes back to genuflect... is "simply getting laughs". Stock characters, comic scenario, schtick, pratfalls, slapstick, timing, burlesque, etc, etc, etc..... nuthin' deep, nuthin' "smart".

But isn't there something in all of these, particularly the Greeks and Romans, that isn't just about the laughs, but also shows a picture of everyday life and makes comments about it that people can identify with?

Certainly.... effective comedy has universality... connects to the broadest swath of audience. When someone slips on a banana peel, there is a polyglot laugh response. Actually, contrary to what you're posing, making comedy about more than the laugh takes you further out of the realm of the universal.... and really makes the comedy less funny.

But I find I laugh harder at that which stors an emotion or thought deeper than "He fell down. Ha ha." Consider Groucho Marx sparring with a pompous foil. The universal desire to see someone with an inflated sense of dignity deprived of that dignity is, to me, a little more complex than slippping on a banana peel, but just as universal, and much funnier. It's still about getting laughs, but it is, in my opinion, a higher quality laugh.

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Reply #29 - Jun 23^rd, 2008 at 10:26am

Tshep Offline
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It made me feel sad, and
just a little bit dirty.
Beebe, Arkansas

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[Perhaps then I misunderstand the the definition of "farce".

Per Websters:

Quote:

A farce is a comedy written for the stage which tries to entertain the audience by means of unlikely and extravagant yet possible situations, mistaken identities, crude verbal humour including puns and sexual innuendo, and a fast-paced plot whose speed usually increases even further towards the end of the play.

As opposed to romantic comedies, farces usually do not contain a traditional love interest or boy meets girl situation. Rather, they focus on the protagonist's urge to hide something from the other characters and the unforeseen chain reaction triggered by this attempt. Usually, there is only one setting throughout the play, in the majority of cases the drawing room of a family home which has numerous doors (and possibly French windows) leading to bedrooms, the kitchen, cupboards, and the garden. Alternatively, the setting can be a hotel or hospital room or an office.

Having no time to step back and consider what they have been doing or will be doing next, the protagonist has soon passed the point of no return, erroneously believing that any course of action is preferable to being found out or admitting the truth themselves. This way they get deeper and deeper into "trouble".

Many farces move at frantic pace toward the climax, in which the initial problem is resolved one way or another, often through a deus ex machina twist of the plot. Generally, there is a happy ending. To the audience's delight, however, the convention of poetic justice is not always observed: The protagonist may get away with what they have been trying to hide at all costs, even if it is a criminal act.

This skeleton in the closet may be real or just imagined (i e based on some misunderstanding or a misinterpretation of facts); a secret which concerns the immediate present or the long-forgotten past and has just re-emerged and started to threaten the main character's security or peace and quiet, at least seemingly. The subject-matters chosen by the various writers of farce reflect the social mores of the time: In the late 19th century, it can be a woman lying about her real age, or a man having an illegitimate child. In the course of the 20th century, it is mainly infidelity, with the protagonist trying to prevent their extra-marital affair from becoming publicly known.

As far as ridiculous, far-fetched situations and quick and witty repartee are concerned, there are parallels between farces on the one hand and TV sitcoms (such as John Cleese's Fawlty Towers) and, in film, screwball comedies on the other. See also bedroom farce.

They say, best men are moulded out of faults; &&And, for the most, become much more the better &&For being a little bad.

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