In recent months there has been a sudden surge of angry rants in the audition section of Backstageutah.com, most of them complaining about the boogeyman of community theatre, unannounced pre-casting.� These have, in my opinion, damaged the dignity and goodwill of the local theatre community. Instead of continuing to get frustrated and make the same arguments in all of these threads, I�m writing this letter to just say how I feel about this subject and hopefully leave it there.

I more than understand the frustrations of the audition process. As I�ve repeated enough times that some people are getting sick of hearing it, I�ve more or less retired from acting because of them. The casting process is brutal and discouraging. And I can�t agree with those who say to just persevere and the good parts will come. I suppose it depends on your definition of �good parts�. In the process of 20 years, more than fifty plays and somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 auditions, the parts I wanted never came. Whether this was due to �type� or the fact that I just wasn�t as good an actor as I wanted to be, I really don�t know. It doesn�t much matter at this point.� �After putting aside emotion and taking a hard look at it, I realized the roles weren�t going to come, and that I was never going to be happy with the parts that were coming. I�m not suggesting this as a course of action, just stating that I feel it was a good decision in my case. Moving on has made me a happier and more fulfilled person.

But, as much as I hated the discouragement of dealing with typecasting, favoritism, etc, I have to be honest and say these things were not mistreatment. Actors want to see an audition as an athletic competition. If you �dig down deep� and nail the audition, you�ll get the role. It doesn�t work that way, and, you know what? It shouldn�t, necessarily. You may very well have given the best audition that day. You may well be a better actor/actress/singer/dancer than the person they cast. Or you may not. Either way, casting is about realizing the production team�s vision of the show, not about picking who had the best day there, or even who the most all around talented person is. In addition, as frustrating as it is to feel your time was wasted, please consider that, even in a small audition, the production team is trying to coordinate many different elements, and dealing with a number of actors. As great as it would be to expect them to give equal attention to the opportunities and emotions of every single auditioner, that�s not a fair and reasonable expectation. Their minds must first and foremost be on the show. The majority of directors and producers I have known over the years have genuinely not wanted to hurt anyone�s feelings. But it�s unavoidable. All it takes is two people who had their hearts sets on the same role. One of them doesn�t get it, and their feelings are justifiably hurt. It can be painful to miss out on something that�s really important to you. I certainly know it was for me. I�m still seriously smarting over auditions that took place in 1998, 2001 and 2004.

So, what I�m saying is, you don�t need to have a positive attitude. The sun may very well not come out tomorrow, and pretending it will when the evidence shows it won�t may not help you or make you happy. But hiding under the mask of anonymity to take shots at the theatre or director who hurt you won�t help you or anyone else. It will only create more bad feelings. And, even if you�re being open about your identity, give some thought to your public statements. The likelihood of any actor�s perspective about any audition ever being accurate and unbiased is very low. Publicly badmouthing the people and organization for who you auditioned just simply isn�t very classy or very smart. It has all of the dignity, credibility and persuasive value of restroom grafitti.

Finally, let�s examine what �pre-casting� is and isn�t. It IS, officially or unofficially, making an advance decision about who is playing a role and not giving anyone else consideration for the role. While this would in theory include having people read for the role �for show� and not taking them seriously, that�s impossible to prove, and even if you  feel certain of it yourself that�s more likely jealousy and anger speaking than it is a reasonable interpretation of the circumstances.

Pre-casting is NOT casting a friend, a relative, or a favorite that typically plays the leads. Arguments could be made for or against any of these practices. That�s another subject. It could be favoritism, it could be lack of imagination, or it could be an honest choice that said person was who the director and/or producer felt best fit their vision for the role. But it�s not pre-casting. It�s not �basically� pre-casting. It�s a completely different, unrelated animal.

In closing, I�m just asking people to think before they speak, and not hurl accusations out of anger. There is no potential for good in that. The theate community isn't made up of heroes and villains, just imperfect people who are, for the most part, just trying to do their best.

Thank you,
Paul Gibbs,
a.ka. Dark Knight

DK, Wow.

That was just what needed to be said and I admire your willingness to share your personal struggles.

Thank you.

Rosie Poppins wrote on Jun 19^th, 2010 at 5:08pm:

DK, Wow. That was just what needed to be said and I admire your willingness to share your personal struggles. Thank you.

Thank you. That is a very kind thing to say.

Hear, hear!!

Being an actor wanting to land that role, as well as being a director having had to deal with the audition process, your well-written letter was much needed as a reminder or an eye-opener to those in the theater community.

I moved to Utah a year ago and have found it a little difficult to "break into" the local community theaters here.... at least in comparison to my previous 6 years in CA. However, I never blamed not getting a role on pre-casting. I realize that you need to get your face out there and to meet people also, and I have enjoyed visiting various theaters and meeting everyone during auditions.
   And to respond to someone else's comment.... a director must have a vision for their show and casting normally coincides with this. Sometimes, adjustments have to be made depending on who shows for auditions. However, even if someone auditions wonderfully, they may not get cast because of something as simple as being to old/young/thin/large/tall, etc. This happens to everyone and it won't change.
   DK, one thing I can't necessarily agree with in your letter is the thinking positive. For me, I have to keep my hopes up and wear my "rose colored glasses". It is what keeps me going. :)
   I think I'm rambling, so I'll end for now.

Well said, DK.  And a necessary reminder for all of us.

Silent Knight wrote on Jun 19^th, 2010 at 4:02pm:

Finally, let�s examine what �pre-casting� is and isn�t. It IS, officially or unofficially, making an advance decision about who is playing a role and not giving anyone else consideration for the role. While this would in theory include having people read for the role �for show� and not taking them seriously, that�s impossible to prove, and even if you� feel certain of it yourself that�s more likely jealousy and anger speaking than it is a reasonable interpretation of the circumstances. Pre-casting is NOT casting a friend, a relative, or a favorite that typically plays the leads. Arguments could be made for or against any of these practices. That�s another subject. It could be favoritism, it could be lack of imagination, or it could be an honest choice that said person was who the director and/or producer felt best fit their vision for the role. But it�s not pre-casting. It�s not �basically� pre-casting. It�s a completely different, unrelated animal.

DK I actually just started a letter on my computer similar to these sentiments that I was going to post here, you beat me to it. Reading between the lines it sounds to me as people have been using the phrase �pre-casting� as a term that means �The director did not cast me and it hurt my feelings.�� The reactions of late to casting decisions have simply had me floored. I am glad I am not the only person to feel this way and I applaud your forthrightness and your timely words. A general definition of "pre-casting" was needed; the phrase is far too often used incorrectly. Stating that someone has been "pre-cast" after an audition might make certain auditioners feel better, but stop to think how these accusations make the person who was cast in the lead feel; how does it make the director feel? I for one applaud those directors and theaters that have, of late, been attacked and unfairly accused by auditioners who have been overlooked for their general class in not attacking back.�

DK I also appreciate you signing your letter but for other reasons entirely that would better be discussed in another subject.

Well said DK.  You HAVE to be thick skinned to do theatre, even community theatre.  If you are not, you should probably find a new hobby.

Also, one of the things that really bothers me about this subject is people claiming that their time was "waisted."  I am sorry, but that is not at all a healthy outlook on life.  Every audition is a chance to improve yourself and get experience.  Even the really poorly run auditions are a learning experience.  If your time was "waisted" that falls squarely on your shoulders. 

I also want to reiterate the point that talent doesn't really have all that much to do with getting a part A LOT of the time.  Sometimes talent trumps all.  Most of the time, however, it's all about "fitting" a part.  This is a hard thing for me to grasp sometimes. I have some unique traits that are either really great for roles or are a huge hindrance.  Even if I feel like I am the most talented person in the room, I have to realize I don't fit a lot of parts.  For example, I'd love to play Seymour in Little Shop, but it's never going to happen for me. 

Theatre is such a hard field to be involved with. There are a lot of times I wish that I didn't love performing.  But alas, it is our curse.

sassyjose wrote on Jun 19^th, 2010 at 9:27pm:

[quote author=7C404D776C495A43776346414F405C280 link=1276984976/0#0 date=1276984976]DK I also appreciate you signing your letter but for other reasons entirely that would better be discussed in another subject.

Thank you. You can PM if that is something you wish to discuss. Or start a thread about it. Either way.

Great sentiment.  The only other thing I would add is that if I am directing a show, and I know someone who would be a great lead, I might invite them to audition.  If someone better auditions, great, I will cast them. If not, I will probably go with the person I invited to audition.  That is not pre-casting.  That is casting.  Just because some communication goes on outside of the audition room doesn't mean it isn't legitimate; it just means you didn't change the mind of the director even though you were given a chance.

Theatre is an emotional medium by nature. Actors put themselves out on the line in auditions, rehearsals and performances. It is completely understandable for feelings of frustration to accompany the processes.
Community theatre can be especially difficult in it's widely varying levels as groups work towards their productions. A little slack for those hard working people with little resources would ease the process for actors. A more critical eye should be expected from companies who have more resources at their disposal.

Dexter the Halls wrote on Jun 20^th, 2010 at 11:19pm:

Great sentiment.� The only other thing I would add is that if I am directing a show, and I know someone who would be a great lead, I might invite them to audition.� If someone better auditions, great, I will cast them. If not, I will probably go with the person I invited to audition.� That is not pre-casting.� That is casting.� Just because some communication goes on outside of the audition room doesn't mean it isn't legitimate; it just means you didn't change the mind of the director even though you were given a chance.

Great point! As a director, as part of the preparation for auditions, I always contact people I know or have worked with, send general emails, etc. I want to make sure I have enough people at auditions to help make the right casting choices. Also, I have found that sometimes it's more difficult finding enough men for a small community theater production, so if you know actors you encourage them to audition. It doesn't mean that you are promising to cast them.

Dexter the Halls wrote on Jun 20^th, 2010 at 11:19pm:

Great sentiment.� The only other thing I would add is that if I am directing a show, and I know someone who would be a great lead, I might invite them to audition.� If someone better auditions, great, I will cast them. If not, I will probably go with the person I invited to audition.� That is not pre-casting.� That is casting.� Just because some communication goes on outside of the audition room doesn't mean it isn't legitimate; it just means you didn't change the mind of the director even though you were given a chance.

A good director invites everyone they know to audition. A great director will ensure that there will be people audition that he or she KNOWS can play the parts. If they end up casting someone they specifically invite to audition it is not the same as pre-casting.

The Childrens Theatre wrote on Jun 20^th, 2010 at 11:35pm:

Theatre is an emotional medium by nature. Actors put themselves out on the line in auditions, rehearsals and performances. It is completely understandable for feelings of frustration to accompany the processes. Community theatre can be especially difficult in it's widely varying levels as groups work towards their productions. A little slack for those hard working people with little resources would ease the process for actors. A more critical eye should be expected from companies who have more resources at their disposal.

Interesting. I've thought a lot about this. In general, the bigger theatres with more resources are the ones that have left me feeling like I've been respected and treated with professionalism at an audition, but it's an interesting point that it may be easier for them to do so in some cases.

Thanks for joining th conversation :)

Dexter the Halls wrote on Jun 20^th, 2010 at 11:19pm:

Great sentiment.� The only other thing I would add is that if I am directing a show, and I know someone who would be a great lead, I might invite them to audition.� If someone better auditions, great, I will cast them. If not, I will probably go with the person I invited to audition.� That is not pre-casting.� That is casting.� Just because some communication goes on outside of the audition room doesn't mean it isn't legitimate; it just means you didn't change the mind of the director even though you were given a chance.

A great addition to the conversation. Might I add something from my experience? For those people we as directors ask to audition, it's vital that we make it clear we a re asking them to to AUDITION, not to play the role. Words like "no guarantees" help. I have been on both sides of situations where an actor invited to audition assumes that they have been more or less offered the part and doesn't get it, and that creates terrible feelings. It's good to make sure the person asked to audition knows they have not been pre-cast.

I like the way this has lead into something of a calm and rational dialogue on how we, as directors or actors, can improve the situation. I see potential for great value in that.

Yeah I'm not seeing how what y'all suggest (i.e. specifically asking a person to audition) doesn't backfire. On the one hand, it looks to the person like they all but have the part (despite your assertion of "no guarantees") and it looks to the other auditioners like pre-casting.

If you can pull it off, good on ya. I'm just saying it would be really hard to do so.

Cheeky Monkey wrote on Jun 21^st, 2010 at 2:16pm:

Yeah I'm not seeing how what y'all suggest (i.e. specifically asking a person to audition) doesn't backfire. On the one hand, it looks to the person like they all but have the part (despite your assertion of "no guarantees") and it looks to the other auditioners like pre-casting. If you can pull it off, good on ya. I'm just saying it would be really hard to do so.

I've seen it happen A LOT.  And in almost all situations, everybody is fine with the way it works out.

Silent Knight wrote on Jun 21^st, 2010 at 1:54pm:

Dexter the Halls wrote on Jun 20th, 2010 at 11:19pm: Great sentiment.� The only other thing I would add is that if I am directing a show, and I know someone who would be a great lead, I might invite them to audition.� If someone better auditions, great, I will cast them. If not, I will probably go with the person I invited to audition.� That is not pre-casting.� That is casting.� Just because some communication goes on outside of the audition room doesn't mean it isn't legitimate; it just means you didn't change the mind of the director even though you were given a chance. A great addition to the conversation. Might I add something from my experience? For those people we as directors ask to audition, it's vital that we make it clear we a re asking them to to AUDITION, not to play the role. Words like "no guarantees" help. I have been on both sides of situations where an actor invited to audition assumes that they have been more or less offered the part and doesn't get it, and that creates terrible feelings. It's good to make sure the person asked to audition knows they have not been pre-cast. I like the way this has lead into something of a calm and rational dialogue on how we, as directors or actors, can improve the situation. I see potential for great value in that.

I've been asked to audition before, and frankly there was no reason for the other folks auditioning to even know I had been asked. How do people even find that out? Good gravy. The only difference I felt in treatment was an added boost of confidence, knowing the director specifically wanted to see me-- it was no different than the way I feel at a callback.

Don't make assumptions. That's pretty much what auditioning has taught me. If someone asks you to audition, don't assume-- even if they're your dear friend! even if they're someone that you've worked with numerous times!-- that you have the part. That's what I think gets feelings hurt. Don't blame a pro team. Solve it yourself: don't make any assumptions. About anyone.

An actor wants any explanation other than "you weren't right for the part" or "somebody did it better" (I know this was always true of me). As such, we look for another explanation, and you can always find a way in which it looks bad. I had an experience where I directed a play in which all but two (out of about six) leads (one of them double cast) and one ensemble member were people who I had never before met. They just showed up at the auditions, did great, and got their parts. Pretty soon the rumor mill at the theatre was saying I had cast the whole show with friends I brought in from the outside and screwed over the hard working regulars at the theatre who had been working toward leads.

There is no way a director or theatre can avoid "the apperance of evil". Again, in order to create a good show, they need to be focused on the show. A director or producer also needs a thick skin, because no matter what they do there will always be people saying nasty things about them out of hurt feelings. They have to push past this and focus on the show. 

The Kaylee and the Ivy wrote on Jun 21^st, 2010 at 2:42pm:

Silent Knight wrote on Jun 21st, 2010 at 1:54pm: Dexter the Halls wrote on Jun 20th, 2010 at 11:19pm: Great sentiment.� The only other thing I would add is that if I am directing a show, and I know someone who would be a great lead, I might invite them to audition.� If someone better auditions, great, I will cast them. If not, I will probably go with the person I invited to audition.� That is not pre-casting.� That is casting.� Just because some communication goes on outside of the audition room doesn't mean it isn't legitimate; it just means you didn't change the mind of the director even though you were given a chance. A great addition to the conversation. Might I add something from my experience? For those people we as directors ask to audition, it's vital that we make it clear we a re asking them to to AUDITION, not to play the role. Words like "no guarantees" help. I have been on both sides of situations where an actor invited to audition assumes that they have been more or less offered the part and doesn't get it, and that creates terrible feelings. It's good to make sure the person asked to audition knows they have not been pre-cast. I like the way this has lead into something of a calm and rational dialogue on how we, as directors or actors, can improve the situation. I see potential for great value in that. I've been asked to audition before, and frankly there was no reason for the other folks auditioning to even know I had been asked. How do people even find that out? Good gravy. The only difference I felt in treatment was an added boost of confidence, knowing the director specifically wanted to see me-- it was no different than the way I feel at a callback. Don't make assumptions. That's pretty much what auditioning has taught me. If someone asks you to audition, don't assume-- even if they're your dear friend! even if they're someone that you've worked with numerous times!-- that you have the part. That's what I think gets feelings hurt. Don't blame a pro team. Solve it yourself: don't make any assumptions. About anyone.

Kaylee, I agree with you. I usually don't care who plays the parts as long as they can do it well, so I am not usually bugged by "precasting" or try to figure out who in my cast was. There are things that raise eyebrows, though.

I think people find out if someone was asked because they "notice" things and the people involved make passing comments. For example, they were at call backs and noticed that someone was cast who wasn't even there. I have a good friend who had his name read at callbacks and he didn't even audition - or was even thinking about auditioning for that show. He made a comment that he is usually is asked to be in the plays at this theater, and he gets the lead most of the time. I figured this theater did this kind of thing, even though they profess to not do it. I don't have bad feelings or start rumors, it just makes me go "hmmm"

Dark Knight, can I get clarification about  something you said in your letter? You said that casting a friend/family member/regular is not precasting, but due to lack of imagination, etc. I think you are right, this doesn't necessarily mean the part was precast, but do you sometimes think it was a stretch to think that it wasn't? I think that's why people have problems with it. I mean if the director's (or producer's) kid is cast as the lead, people are going to assume that they were promised the role, even if that wasn't the case.

gem2477 wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2010 at 9:31am:

Dark Knight, can I get clarification about� something you said in your letter? You said that casting a friend/family member/regular is not precasting, but due to lack of imagination, etc. I think you are right, this doesn't necessarily mean the part was precast, but do you sometimes think it was a stretch to think that it wasn't? I think that's why people have problems with it. I mean if the director's (or producer's) kid is cast as the lead, people are going to assume that they were promised the role, even if that wasn't the case.

While I concede that it's understandable to jump to the conclusion of favoritisim, no, I don't believe that it a stretch to NOT jump to it. Again, I believe that derives from misunderstanding of what "pre-casting" means. I do think that, while casting a friend or family member isn't inherently favoritism, a director or theatre has to be prepared for the consequence that it will appear that way to many people. In most cases, I think the wise thing for said director/theatre to do is just do what they think is right for the play.

I've seen countless cases over friends and family being cast. Casting friends is almost unavoidable. If we're theatre people, our friends are theatre people, and most, understandably, want to work together. Family is a more unique situation, but it's still fairly common. I've seen plenty of cases where I believe (but couldn't prove, and therefore mostly kept my mouth shut) that it was about favoritism, and others where I strongly believe it wasn't.

Again, there is, sadly, a practical limit to how much feelings can be a consideration, and figuring "we can't cast this person in the role because of what it will look like" is, I think, pretty clearly beyond that limit. However, I will admit that I know of at least two theatres in Utah the I think will have trouble attracting new talent for years to come because the APPEARANCE of favoritism in casting years ago left people thinking it was pointless to try. So I suppose it's true that there are consequences even to appearance, however unfair that might be.

If people dislike the way things are being done at a certain theatre, they should stop working there, not publicly trash the place based on innuendo. In my own experience I've found that to be a far better way of dealing with the problem.

Since I was criticized in a prior thread that may have helped give birth to this open letter, I would like to put in my two cents about families being in productions.� Those who know the Jugheads know that we seek out shows we can do as a family.� Often, Jughead has a principal role and the rest of us are in the ensemble or doing work of some kind backstage.� We rarely hear complaints about this.� In fact, last week was the first complaint I have heard.� Perhaps it is because I'm producing the show we are currently doing as a family.� I believe casting families provides a great benefit for the show.� Usually, the family is strengthened by participating in a project together, and that happiness translates to the cast and helps make a better show.� At least, that has been my experience.

However, my husband and I have always tried to do what is best for the show.� Neither of us have ever been pre-cast.� We have felt a sense of security that as many of our family members as possible will be involved in the show we choose, but we never know in what capacity, or whether we will be on stage or off.� �

Is that nepotism or favoritism?� Maybe.� Maybe directors like the dynamic my family brings to a production.� If we improve the production by participating as a family, then what is wrong with casting our family?� That decision between my family and the director.� For me, community theater is an opportunity to explore and improve talents my family members share.� It is also an opportunity to work with new people and make new friends.� It is a shared hobby with many fine people.� We couldn't do this or have these kinds of goals if we were going for professional roles with professional theaters.� For me, this is part of what community theater is about.�

As a producer, I prefer that as many family members participate in a show as possible, for all the reasons stated above.  I encouraged people to audition as families, and I asked that our director put something on the audition sheet asking for names of other family members who auditioned.  To me, this is a good thing, and a step toward cast unity.

Thanks to Rosie, DK, Unwritten, and Only in Las Vegas for your kind words and support!� Rosie did a fantastic job of casting her show, and the show will sparkle with her insight and creativity.� I don't know anyone else who can create such a fun, supportive atmosphere for her cast, and create such funny, entertaining theater as Rosie.� I'm honored to work with her!�

gem2477 wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2010 at 9:18am:

Kaylee, I agree with you. I usually don't care who plays the parts as long as they can do it well, so I am not usually bugged by "precasting" or try to figure out who in my cast was. There are things that raise eyebrows, though. I think people find out if someone was asked because they "notice" things and the people involved make passing comments. For example, they were at call backs and noticed that someone was cast who wasn't even there. I have a good friend who had his name read at callbacks and he didn't even audition - or was even thinking about auditioning for that show. He made a comment that he is usually is asked to be in the plays at this theater, and he gets the lead most of the time. I figured this theater did this kind of thing, even though they profess to not do it. I don't have bad feelings or start rumors, it just makes me go "hmmm"

This reminded me of another thing that people should keep in mind.... I have been cast in a show where I wasn't at the general audition. Due to conflicts, I asked the director if I could audition early and was fortunate that the director was agreeable. My sister has been cast in a few shows this way also. As a director, I have allowed a few actors to audition outside of the general one because knowing from my own experience, people do have conflicts at times (as vacations). I have cast people this way, and also haven't.

So, everyone should keep in mind there are a variety of reasons why someone is cast and/or why they weren't.

Diane wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2010 at 7:30am:

gem2477 wrote on Jun 22nd, 2010 at 9:18am: Kaylee, I agree with you. I usually don't care who plays the parts as long as they can do it well, so I am not usually bugged by "precasting" or try to figure out who in my cast was. There are things that raise eyebrows, though. I think people find out if someone was asked because they "notice" things and the people involved make passing comments. For example, they were at call backs and noticed that someone was cast who wasn't even there. I have a good friend who had his name read at callbacks and he didn't even audition - or was even thinking about auditioning for that show. He made a comment that he is usually is asked to be in the plays at this theater, and he gets the lead most of the time. I figured this theater did this kind of thing, even though they profess to not do it. I don't have bad feelings or start rumors, it just makes me go "hmmm"� This reminded me of another thing that people should keep in mind.... I have been cast in a show where I wasn't at the general audition. Due to conflicts, I asked the director if I could audition early and was fortunate that the director was agreeable. My sister has been cast in a few shows this way also. As a director, I have allowed a few actors to audition outside of the general one because knowing from my own experience, people do have conflicts at times (as vacations). I have cast people this way, and also haven't. So, everyone should keep in mind there are a variety of reasons why someone is cast and/or why they weren't.

That's a good example. I usually don't care because I know that I don't know the whole story. A lot of anger would be ended if people kept that in mind.

gem2477 wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2010 at 9:31am:

... casting a friend/family member/regular is not precasting, but due to lack of imagination, etc. I think you are right, this doesn't necessarily mean the part was precast, but do you sometimes think it was a stretch to think that it wasn't? I think that's why people have problems with it. I mean if the director's (or producer's) kid is cast as the lead, people are going to assume that they were promised the role, even if that wasn't the case.

I have cast my best friend as the lead in two productions and been accused of pre-casting her twice. The thing is my best friend is RIDICULOUSLY talented and earned her part both times struggling through auditions and callbacks with everyone else. Again it is just the nature of theater that people assume I promised her the role. Doing what is best for the production sometimes means that the director's close friends or family WILL at times get the lead. That is just the nature of the business.

sassyjose wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2010 at 9:39am:

gem2477 wrote on Jun 22nd, 2010 at 9:31am: ... casting a friend/family member/regular is not precasting, but due to lack of imagination, etc. I think you are right, this doesn't necessarily mean the part was precast, but do you sometimes think it was a stretch to think that it wasn't? I think that's why people have problems with it. I mean if the director's (or producer's) kid is cast as the lead, people are going to assume that they were promised the role, even if that wasn't the case. I have cast my best friend as the lead in two productions and been accused of pre-casting her twice. The thing is my best friend is RIDICULOUSLY talented and earned her part both times struggling through auditions and callbacks with everyone else. Again it is just the nature of theater that people assume I promised her the role. Doing what is best for the production sometimes means that the director's close friends or family WILL at times get the lead. That is just the nature of the business.

In fact, it may be INHERENTLY good at times that a friend or family member is cast, if the director and actor have a strong creative relationship. It was not lack of imagination that lead Martin Scorcese to cast Robert De Niro 7 times.

Silent Knight wrote on Jun 19^th, 2010 at 4:02pm:

Finally, let�s examine what �pre-casting� is and isn�t. It IS, officially or unofficially, making an advance decision about who is playing a role and not giving anyone else consideration for the role. While this would in theory include having people read for the role �for show� and not taking them seriously, that�s impossible to prove, and even if you� feel certain of it yourself that�s more likely jealousy and anger speaking than it is a reasonable interpretation of the circumstances.

Thank you, DK, for defining it.� I think a lot of drama could be spared if everyone remembers exactly what pre-casting is.� And also if we remember that there are certain situations that call for precasting...it's the undisclosed precasting that is dishonest and inconsiderate to actors.

May I submit that a possibly more appropriate and effective way of influencing the theatre community from avoiding undisclosed precasting?� If an actor is committing a significant amount of resources and energy toward an audition (coachings, etc.) and is concerned about the likelihood that the role will be truly precast, perhaps he/she should just call the director before the audition and politely ask, "Hello, I'm auditioning for _________and I was wondering if there are any roles precast in your show?"� One may or may not get a straight answer, but I think it is a more "classy" approach to keeping actors and directors in check.

DK- Let me start off by saying I appreciate your letter, and I do believe and respect alot of what you have said and am glad that finally someone is posting something about this.
However
What ever definition you put on it, precasting does in fact happen. Be it telling a friend they don't need to audition that they have the role and then allowing others to audition for that role, or a director casting themselves in the show and not telling anyone.
Either way most of us don't know exactly what is happening unless we are in the room of the auditions, casting decisions, or are the actor that is called to be in the show.

I agree that there are alot of butt hurt people that come on these boards to bitch and moan about not getting cast, and the only way they feel better about how they did is by taking their anger out on others or by grasping at straws.

In my blah blah years of stage managing and acting I have only run across precasting on 4 occasions. 2 as an actress and 2 as a stage manager. All four times though it was a complete precasting scenario, and it was not let known until during callbacks, or after callbacks that it was what had happened.

So it does happen.

but 9 times out of 10 it is a sore loser.........

Only In Las Vegas wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2010 at 3:47pm:

DK- Let me start off by saying I appreciate your letter, and I do believe and respect alot of what you have said and am glad that finally someone is posting something about this. However What ever definition you put on it, precasting does in fact happen. Be it telling a friend they don't need to audition that they have the role and then allowing others to audition for that role, or a director casting themselves in the show and not telling anyone.

I never said pre-casting doesn't happen. The first example you mention, in fact, clearly falls into the definiton I used of pre-casting, so we completely agree there� :)

The second is ONLY pre-casting if the director chose irrevocably before that hand that he/she was playing the role and never considering someone else. A director announcing at callbacks that they are considering themself for a role may is absolutely NOT "pre-casting". It may theoretically be wrong, unfair, or unprofessional (depending on the circumstances) but, sorry, simple word meaning says it's not "pre-casting".

Hi Paul,
Strangely, (meaning I never thought I would find myself in the role of a director more often than an actor) I have to cast alot of people. Each audition is so vastly different as you never know who will show up at your audition. I never pre-cast, but I do admit to having someone in mind and inviting them and hoping that they will come. When I invite someone that I think would do a great job, I am always careful. I say that there are some roles in the upcoming production that they would be great in, but I never promise them a role. Hopefully, they don't take it as a guarantee. I have, however, had people come with the attitude that they are automatically cast and seem rather shocked when they don't get the part. For me, a big thing I look at in an audition (beside the obvious...can they do it?) is their attitude and if they seem direct-able. 
Anyway, I remember one show that I directed that the producer had already pre-cast one of the roles without my input. When we had auditions, there was another gentleman that was clearly better for the role in my vision of what the show should be. I fought with the producer and finally got my way, but they had to contact the pre-cast member and tell him that he would not be doing the show. The poor actor was so mad and I didn't blame him...but I wanted the show to go in a different direction.
Also, (and this is just my opinion, of course) it seems to me that in SOME cases when an actor is pre-cast or called in as a "favor" (which is sometimes unavoidable) that they don't seem to be as committed as those who had to "work" for the part and the entire cast and show suffers for it.
In my experience, pre-casting leads to nothing but trouble.

Thanks,
Annelise

Poison Ivy Mysteries wrote on Jun 30^th, 2010 at 8:59pm:

. I never pre-cast, but I do admit to having someone in mind and inviting them and hoping that they will come. When I invite someone that I think would do a great job, I am always careful. I say that there are some roles in the upcoming production that they would be great in, but I never promise them a role.

And one of my main points has been that this is not the same thing as precasting. I do think it's very important emphasize, as you're saying hear, to such people, that you are asking them to AUDTITION, not OFFERING them a role, and that must be made explicit as possible.  Some directors think that should just be implied, and I could not disagree more strongly.

I take the same view as what appears to be most people in the theatre community: ANNOUNCEd pre-casting is fine. Sometimes you know exactly what's right for your vision, and it's a waste of time not to just pre-cast a role. However, director and producer must be ina agreement on this. The sittuation you describe is obviously a bad one, and it adds to the discussion by pointing out the often forgotten fact that, in many production, casting is not the decision of one indivisual. There has likely been a lot of give, take and compromise.

Now saying that, DN I agree with you 100%. A very nice,open and honest letter. I appreciate your honesty and candor.

Off-Topic replies have been moved to this Topic.

So I'm just browsing through old threads, la dee da, and happen upon this wonderful post. Of course you already know what I am thinking about now!  Thanks for all you boys have done for me, for my family, for DHT, and for the theatre community in general. Thanks for remaining dignified and professional in the face of spiteful, small-minded people who can only see things from their own limited perspective. I heart you both.